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[08:46] [heyoka] Hey there fellas.... This is an A.I. question for Niker.
[08:46] [heyoka] In a discussion about changing WZ Fog of War the short-comings of the pathing a.i. / gateway schema came-up.
[08:46] [heyoka] Its most hurtful impact is on the Skirmish a.i. & until we come-up with something different...
[08:46] [heyoka] One way around the problem is for the skirmish a.i. to use unit transports to deploy ground combat groups.... What's your thoughts on that Niker ?
[08:46] [heyoka] thanks....l8r dudes, frank :-)
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[08:47] [NIKER|idling] twat.. I am here
[08:47] [NIKER|idling] lol
[08:52] [NIKER|idling] human player knows how the map looks and all the possible paths to enemy base, so his planning isn't in any way affected by FoW, therefore even pathfinding of AI shouldn't be
[08:52] [NIKER|idling] it's that simple
[08:54] [NIKER|idling] about gateways, I don't know what kind of changes are to be made but AI can do without gateways if I get the possibility to iterate map tiles
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[10:34] [heyoka] At work gotta jump in & out quick. Niker I think my ref to FoW sidetracked my actual point.
[10:34] [heyoka] As a player it takes awhile before you know the whole map & even then you still have to baby sit your units to get from A to B.
[10:35] [heyoka] If you try doing that with multiple ground groups its no fun & it's all tied to the pathing a.i. the babysitting.
[10:35] [heyoka] Till Ski a.i. Can iterate tiles it has to deal with ground scouts & groups going the long way around or just getting stuck or pausing for long periods.
[10:35] [heyoka] If you could use Unit Transports (player & a.i.) to get combat groups from A to B it would be better than moving on the ground.
[10:35] [heyoka] That's really what I was getting at - implementing Unit Transports for the Player & the ski a.i.
[10:36] [heyoka] Srry, gotta go quick... Field work.. doing this on my cell phone... Thanks.Niker, tty L8r. Frank :-)
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[10:42] [NIKER|idling] using transports is not a solution, it's a feature that is certainly possible, but nothing more.. the pathfinding has to be improved to always find the shortest route between poin A and B, there are algoritms for that, taking tile passability and built structures into account, and of course it has to be recalculated as structres are built. When it's fixed, you won't need to babysit your units
[10:43] [NIKER|idling] that's one of features I'd like to see implemented, to iterate path tiles in AI script. I'd just set points A and B, engine would calculate path and return coordinates of tiles on the way
[10:47] [NIKER|idling] right now the AI is completely dumb, moving straight from A to B, depending entirely on automatic engine pathfinding, on crooked terrain it can't even see wheter unit is far or near the point B
[10:49] [NIKER|idling] with path iteration I could run one pass with structures being ignored, see what blocks the way and then just find alternate route with impassable structures or decide to shoot my way through the blocked path... possibilities are endless
[10:52] [NIKER|idling] transports are easy to implement though with lifted memory limits but they are highly inefficient, AI should use them as a last resort
[10:56] [NIKER|idling] you have to consider that with the limited amount of tiles on WZ map, we can use a lookup table with shortest paths from each point to every other that may be used for pure tile path iteration, only the pathfinding that covers structures and units must be real-time
[10:58] [NIKER|idling] and that has to be recalculated only when new structure is placed and when unit enters a tile
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[13:53] [GrimMoroe] hello
[13:53] [NIKER|idling] hi
[13:54] [GrimMoroe] whats new?
[13:54] [NIKER|idling] unfortunatelly nothing, too much to do, too little time
[13:55] [GrimMoroe] how old are you niker?
[13:55] [NIKER|idling] 21
[13:55] [GrimMoroe] in school?
[13:55] [NIKER|idling] yup, uni
[13:55] [GrimMoroe] which uni?
[13:56] [NIKER|idling] I doubt you know universities here in Czech republic lol
[13:56] [NIKER|idling] but it's IT if that's what you meant
[13:56] [GrimMoroe] no but i have a lot of friends that live there
[13:57] [NIKER|idling] South Bohemian University
[13:57] [GrimMoroe] hmmm that sounds familiar
[13:57] [GrimMoroe] i wonder if thats where accuracy is going
[13:57] [NIKER|idling] no idea
[13:58] [GrimMoroe] i will have to ask him next time he is online
[13:58] [GrimMoroe] what are you mjoring in?
[13:58] [GrimMoroe] majoring too
[13:59] [NIKER|idling] IT in general, it's a bachelor degree
[13:59] [NIKER|idling] got 1 year to go
[13:59] [GrimMoroe] i see
[14:00] [GrimMoroe] did you learn warzone AI scripting from just looking at the current AI?
[14:01] [NIKER|idling] mailnly from the scriptLang.rtf lol
[14:01] [GrimMoroe] interesting
[14:01] [NIKER|idling] but I got some general ideas on how to use events and such in 1.10AI
[14:02] [NIKER|idling] wasn't my first time in programming, I'm doing this stuff since I was 10
[14:02] [GrimMoroe] do you know how to program also?
[14:03] [GrimMoroe] so what all does the scripting language lack?
[14:03] [NIKER|idling] well maybe I was 9 when I started out making simple foxpro scripts lol
[14:03] [GrimMoroe] lol
[14:05] [NIKER|idling] I think that the WZ scripting language is fine it just needs bugfixes and some extra functions
[14:06] [GrimMoroe] i thought it allowed you to create functions?
[14:07] [NIKER|idling] that would probably siomplify things
[14:07] [GrimMoroe] I guess I really should take another look at it
[14:07] [NIKER|idling] but look what people managed to do and consider it's buggy as hell atm...
[14:08] [GrimMoroe] buggy how?
[14:08] [NIKER|idling] I don't have a list
[14:08] [GrimMoroe] could you make one?
[14:09] [NIKER|idling] bud there are bigs and limitations that make WZ script debugging a nigjtmare
[14:09] [NIKER|idling] but there are bugs
[14:09] [NIKER|idling] *
[14:09] [GrimMoroe] I could imagine
[14:10] [NIKER|idling] I've been there twice.. had to rewrite 3 pages long script because there was an error I was unable to track
[14:11] [GrimMoroe] that sucks
[14:11] [NIKER|idling] there's simple way to improve this - add ability to output text to game console
[14:12] [NIKER|idling] I was using weather changes to track bugs down... red/green/blue/yellow lol
[14:12] [NIKER|idling] sky color
[14:12] [GrimMoroe] lol
[14:13] [NIKER|idling] if you want to output a message on screen, you need to declare the text in VLO first
[14:13] [NIKER|idling] that sucks as well
[14:14] [NIKER|idling] + the text itself must be stored in WDG
[14:14] [GrimMoroe] i bet
[14:15] [NIKER|idling] something like trace() to log text to file would be nice as well
[14:15] [GrimMoroe] I will write all of this down and see what I can do
[14:17] [NIKER|idling] I can go through scriptlang when I have time and see if I can pinpoint the functions that needs fixes or extension
[14:17] [GrimMoroe] please do
[14:17] [NIKER|idling] but not now, I started working on my bachelor project, language automata generator
[14:17] [NIKER|idling] C#
[14:17] [GrimMoroe] cool
[14:19] [NIKER|idling] I think I can finish this in 5 days, and can try to get the scriptlang on my PDA so I can work on that in school
[14:19] [GrimMoroe] 8-)
[14:22] [marsbound2024] hello guys
[14:23] [GrimMoroe] hello
[14:23] [marsbound2024] was wondering why I couldn't edit my post?
[14:31] [GrimMoroe] hmm not sure
[14:31] [GrimMoroe] I will have to look into it
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[15:07] [heyoka] Hello All.... Thank you Niker. Clearly you make the best case for the ultimate solution to pathing & A.I. facility A to B.
[15:07] [heyoka] Transports are merely an interim relief to the present frustrating reality. I think of 'em as a feasible bridge for now toward the future solution.
[15:07] [GrimMoroe] hey
[15:07] [heyoka] I don't see a downside to a 2-step advance vs. relying one quantum leap ahead... If that makes sense. Do you see a drawback with that ? ...L8rs frank :-)
[15:08] [GrimMoroe] do you have a bit to talk?
[15:08] [heyoka] Hey Grim ya caught me..heh
[15:08] [GrimMoroe] :)
[15:08] [heyoka] a little
[15:08] [GrimMoroe] like catching a fly with chop sticks
[15:08] [heyoka] yep lol
[15:08] [GrimMoroe] can you do pm
[15:08] [heyoka] what up ?
[15:09] [heyoka] like what ?
[15:09] [GrimMoroe] we need to take this to a private chat
[15:09] [GrimMoroe] I really want to mull this over with you though
[15:09] [heyoka] IOh... can tonight..
[15:10] [heyoka] not set up here
[15:10] [GrimMoroe] what time?
[15:10] [heyoka] 6 PM Mountain time
[15:10] [GrimMoroe] ok
[15:10] [GrimMoroe] cya then
[15:11] [heyoka] K .... you bet
[15:11] [GrimMoroe] cool :-D
[15:11] [heyoka] l8r...frank :-)
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[15:12] [GrimMoroe] marsbound2024: have you been keeping up with the WRP warzone progress?
[15:55] [marsbound2024] pardon?
[16:10] [NIKER|idling] how the heck can he see what I write if he's not here lol
[16:12] [marsbound2024] what WRP progress
[16:13] [marsbound2024] o
[16:13] [marsbound2024] Warzone Ressurection Project?
[16:14] [marsbound2024] a bit
[16:45] [GrimMoroe] niker this channel is logged and he reads the logs...trust me on that one
[16:45] [GrimMoroe] yes marsbound2024 warzone ressurection project
[16:46] [marsbound2024] I've kept up with the progress a bit, but I not much until recently
[16:46] [marsbound2024] to be honest, I originally heard about it and expected it to utterly fail
[16:46] [marsbound2024] now I don't think so
[16:46] [GrimMoroe] what do you think about their direction?
[16:46] [marsbound2024] better and more focused than prior projects
[16:47] [marsbound2024] I like the structure
[16:47] [marsbound2024] I am unsure about the whole 2200 target thing... seems pretty lofty
[16:47] [marsbound2024] I would expect DRASTIC changes in tech over 100 years
[16:47] [GrimMoroe] why do you say that?
[16:47] [marsbound2024] so I am curious how it will be implemented without "shocking" the players
[16:48] [GrimMoroe] I agree there will be drastic changes in tech
[16:48] [marsbound2024] for instance, having mission I with ... as an analogy... infantry with muzzleloaders
[16:48] [marsbound2024] then mission II with tanks
[16:48] [marsbound2024] mission III with nukes
[16:48] [marsbound2024] (i.e.: transition from late 1800s to mid to late 1900s)
[16:49] [marsbound2024] I mean sure the world Collapsed, hence the name the Collapse... but I still expect general drastic changes in tech trends
[16:49] [GrimMoroe] I think we are in a good position to pull it off
[16:49] [GrimMoroe] it will just take time
[16:49] [NIKER|idling] we can always rename it lol
[16:49] [marsbound2024] I came in this project late, I would assume that people have their heads on their shoulders
[16:49] [marsbound2024] I just have my initial concerns that I am sure will be resolved
[16:50] [GrimMoroe] I have my own concerns also but they have nothing to do with whether or not we can pull this off
[16:51] [marsbound2024] same
[16:51] [marsbound2024] I am sure you can pull it off
[16:51] [marsbound2024] the project
[16:51] [marsbound2024] I want to really dive into the storyline with my ideas
[16:51] [GrimMoroe] I only wish we had more coders
[16:51] [marsbound2024] I helped Coyote a LOT on his delayed Mars Project
[16:51] [NIKER|idling] damn.. another bug in .NET framework 3.5 I found :/
[16:51] [marsbound2024] I would love to help if I knew how to code
[16:51] [marsbound2024] what programming language, C#?
[16:52] [NIKER|idling] yup
[16:52] [marsbound2024] I know Java
[16:52] [GrimMoroe] his mars project is going to be included in warzone2200 at some point
[16:52] [NIKER|idling] I know both + VB
[16:52] [marsbound2024] well if we have warzone 2200
[16:52] [marsbound2024] I think we should have 50 mission
[16:52] [marsbound2024] missions*
[16:52] [marsbound2024] lofty lofty goal
[16:52] [marsbound2024] but it would soften the blow of the timeframe
[16:52] [marsbound2024] campaigns are instead periods of time
[16:53] [marsbound2024] Campaign I: Earth (subtitle: The First Twenty Years)
[16:53] [marsbound2024] see that in itself sounds daunting
[16:53] [marsbound2024] 20 years in say...15 missions?
[16:53] [marsbound2024] wtf
[16:53] [GrimMoroe] how many missions we have completely depends on how many people we have doing the work
[16:53] [marsbound2024] yeah
[16:53] [marsbound2024] I just wonder if we are setting too big a timeframe for our size project
[16:53] [GrimMoroe] I currently already spend 20+ hours a work on warzone stuff
[16:53] [marsbound2024] a week..that is amazing, sir
[16:54] [marsbound2024] www.photobucket.com/albums/v329/marsbound2024
[16:54] [GrimMoroe] we are not trying to cover the hundred years between wz2100 and 2200
[16:54] [marsbound2024] I do some graphical stuff as well... but fell better doing advertising/marketing/boxart and stuff
[16:54] [NIKER|idling] that's not a consern, missions can be added on the fly
[16:54] [marsbound2024] alright, so what are we doing Grim?
[16:54] [NIKER|idling] like 2 missions a month
[16:54] [NIKER|idling] would draw more ppl
[16:55] [NIKER|idling] that is if it's good
[16:55] [GrimMoroe] well I am not involved in the story much aside from reading them and trying to keep my work inline with them
[16:56] [GrimMoroe] right now I am trying to finish of the 3 tilesets
[16:56] [GrimMoroe] and get the map editor up to speed
[16:56] [GrimMoroe] as a matter of fact the map editor has evolved a lot
[16:56] [GrimMoroe] it supports almost everything we currently need and seems very stable
[16:57] [GrimMoroe] I just finished the first revision of the urban tileset
[16:57] [GrimMoroe] actually all 3 tilesets have the first revision done
[16:58] [marsbound2024] well what is our goal
[16:58] [marsbound2024] to cover in our 20+ mission campagins
[16:58] [marsbound2024] in the game
[16:58] [GrimMoroe] Frank is covering what will be in the 20 cams
[16:58] [GrimMoroe] thats on the wiki
[16:58] [GrimMoroe] right now we are focusing on cam 1
[16:59] [GrimMoroe] Crash
[16:59] [GrimMoroe] it is detailed on the wiki also
[16:59] [marsbound2024] 20 cams?
[16:59] [marsbound2024] lol
[16:59] [marsbound2024] 20 missions?
[16:59] [GrimMoroe] yes 20
[16:59] [GrimMoroe] missions
[16:59] [marsbound2024] k
[16:59] [marsbound2024] about to say...holy shit 20 campaigns
[16:59] [GrimMoroe] as far as I know
[17:00] [GrimMoroe] frank can correct me if I made any mistakes
[17:00] [marsbound2024] do you think I would be able to write some for those missions?
[17:00] [GrimMoroe] sure
[17:00] [GrimMoroe] frank loves collaborating with others on the story stuff
[17:00] [marsbound2024] which one is frank
[17:00] [marsbound2024] rman?
[17:00] [GrimMoroe] RV, RMan
[17:00] [GrimMoroe] yes
[17:00] [marsbound2024] k
[17:01] [GrimMoroe] he has been building up the scavs
[17:01] [GrimMoroe] they are going to use cargo containers to build bases...
[17:01] [GrimMoroe] I made some of the models for that
[17:02] [GrimMoroe] right now I am working on map features for cam 1
[17:03] [GrimMoroe] keep in mind though that our first goal is to replace the gfx in warzone 2100 and fix the bugs, and get multiplayer solid before diving into 2200
[17:03] [marsbound2024] definitely
[17:03] [GrimMoroe] it would be nice to get nikers AI into the game also
[17:03] [marsbound2024] gfx needs to evolve
[17:03] [marsbound2024] your graphics are awesome
[17:03] [GrimMoroe] that way we can do a release
[17:04] [marsbound2024] but I was concerned that the engine wont work
[17:04] [GrimMoroe] what do you mean?
[17:04] [marsbound2024] the warzone 2100 engine
[17:04] [marsbound2024] how can it render your graphics
[17:04] [GrimMoroe] what about it?
[17:04] [GrimMoroe] lol
[17:04] [marsbound2024] if we are going to evolve warzone 2100
[17:04] [GrimMoroe] it is
[17:04] [marsbound2024] what about shadowing
[17:04] [marsbound2024] I am not expecting fully modern graphics
[17:04] [marsbound2024] more like 2002 level... is that possible?
[17:04] [GrimMoroe] http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/GrimMoroe/ingametweak2.jpg
[17:05] [GrimMoroe] http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/GrimMoroe/ingametweak.jpg
[17:05] [GrimMoroe] those are current
[17:05] [GrimMoroe] and ingame
[17:05] [marsbound2024] looks like skins to me
[17:05] [marsbound2024] oooo
[17:05] [marsbound2024] the urban environment looks great
[17:05] [marsbound2024] cept for the buildings
[17:06] [marsbound2024] the civilian buildings that is
[17:06] [GrimMoroe] those are the original ones
[17:06] [GrimMoroe] I haven't done those yet
[17:06] [marsbound2024] and is it me or are the roads in "too pristine" condition
[17:06] [GrimMoroe] but I have tested stuff
[17:06] [marsbound2024] ya this is early on
[17:06] [marsbound2024] I understand :)
[17:06] [marsbound2024] is there a way to redo the interface?
[17:06] [marsbound2024] I could work on that
[17:06] [GrimMoroe] yes they are thats because I am doing two sets one for a new city and one for a destroyed set
[17:06] [marsbound2024] making the buttons look better/more 3D
[17:07] [GrimMoroe] right now no
[17:07] [marsbound2024] ah alright
[17:07] [GrimMoroe] the GUI is hard coded
[17:07] [marsbound2024] darn
[17:07] [GrimMoroe] I talked to remus about it but he said he didn't want to work on the GUI because there was nothing wrong with it :-/
[17:07] [marsbound2024] sure there is nothing wrong with it
[17:07] [marsbound2024] but
[17:08] [marsbound2024] making visual improvements would complement the game
[17:08] [GrimMoroe] and unless the coders do what we need there are things we can not change
[17:08] [GrimMoroe] I agree
[17:08] [marsbound2024] true
[17:08] [GrimMoroe] now we just need a coder thats willing to work on it
[17:08] [marsbound2024] btw I was wondering about the engineering unit
[17:08] [marsbound2024] looks awesome like a dune buggy
[17:09] [GrimMoroe] chojun probably will once his life settles down again
[17:09] [marsbound2024] but the top part... can we modify that as well?
[17:09] [GrimMoroe] yes
[17:09] [marsbound2024] retain the traditional look
[17:09] [marsbound2024] maybe with modifications
[17:09] [marsbound2024] it seems bulky on the dunebuggy
[17:09] [marsbound2024] yeah, Chojun with his new baby :)
[17:09] [GrimMoroe] that is a drawback of designing your own units
[17:09] [GrimMoroe] you can not make everything "fit"
[17:10] [GrimMoroe] besides I changed that body I just need to add it to the latest version of the game
[17:10] [marsbound2024] changed the engineering body?
[17:11] [GrimMoroe] http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/GrimMoroe/test10.jpg
[17:11] [GrimMoroe] thats what they look like now
[17:11] [marsbound2024] very nice
[17:12] [marsbound2024] any laser-effects still?
[17:12] [GrimMoroe] thanks
[17:12] [GrimMoroe] and yes
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